Filed under: Car Buying, Green, Japan, Tech, Honda, Nissan
Honda and Nissan working to mass-market carbon fiber
Honda and Nissan are looking for ways to make cars lighter, better, and more recyclable, both for their own benefits and their customers. We've heard about the increased use of aluminum to save weight; next on the heavy R&D frontier could be carbon fiber. Both companies have teamed up with Japanese carbon fiber company Toray, and Mitsubishi Rayon -- a Japanese version of DuPont -- to research new, less expensive carbon fiber for cars.
Their efforts will be helped by the government, which is injecting two billion yen into the project over five years. The plan is that by the middle of the next decade, they'll be able to mass produce a cost effective carbon fiber and use it to reduce the weight of cars by 40-percent. And when they're finished with it, they will also be able to recycle it to reduce production costs.
The current price of carbon fiber makes its use prohibitive except for ornamentation or for use on the most expensive cars. With the price of steel -- and cars -- expected to keep climbing, the mass produced, recyclable carbon fiber will make financial sense in the not-too-distant future. Add in the fuel savings from lighter vehicles, and fewer emissions, and it looks like everyone wins. Thanks for the tip, David!
[Source: Reuters via Carbon Fiber Gear, Photo: p914 | Licensed under Creative Commons 2.0]
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
BlackCanary 3:49PM (7/24/2008)
I can see a goverment/business cooperative but not with the auto industry. This is materials science and research money should go to materials companies not the auto industry. Hexcel, Cytec, DuPont, Zoltec, SGL are better options than any auto company. Just because they need to use a material does not equal knowing anything about making it.
SteveRB 4:19PM (7/24/2008)
BlackCanary -
Just curious, of those companies you've listed, is there a clear leader in this industry? Are any of them particularly dominant in the auto industry?
Pacman 3:24PM (7/24/2008)
I am very interested to learn how what solutions they come up with. What makes CF so expensive is that it is so freaking labor intensive to produce.
It is NOT just Nissan and Honda exploring this and it is not CF as you think of it now.
DuPont is now talking about plastics climbing "the metals replacement curve." MetaFuse technology, combines "nanocrystalline" metals with engineering polymers to create objects with exceptionally high stiffness-to-weight ratios.
Carbon nanotubes will replace metal entirely in future automobiles, mobile electronics, and other products. Bayer and RTP have shown carbon nanotube-based composite plastics. Bayer announced it's building a second production facility for carbon nanotubes. The new facility's capacity is only 30 metric tons per year; Bayer and all of today's suppliers together can barely handle the demand for experimentation and prototyping, but Bayer claims its "medium term" plan is to build another facility with the capacity to produce 3,000 tons per year. That's starting to become significant!
Carbon-fiber composites are already strong enough to replace aluminum and steel in certain circumstances, usually where cost not considered a problem compared to weight or style, as in Toyota's 1/X concept (a carbon-fiber car weighing just 926 pounds) or the 2008 BMW M3.
But carbon nanotubes are so much stronger than carbon (graphite) fibers that they will likely enable entirely new design philosophies, in the same way that steel revolutionized shipbuilding, and aluminum made commercial aviation practical. We define prehistoric times in terms of materials science--the Stone Age, Bronze Age, and Iron Age--and we're on the cusp of a new age based on practical nanotechnology.
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steve-o 3:28PM (7/24/2008)
Thats the lightest picture ever on AB.
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Martman 3:28PM (7/24/2008)
SW
Or used it to help pay for Wagoners $15 million slary.
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Purifoy 3:41PM (7/24/2008)
Bring it!!!
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BlackCanary 3:41PM (7/24/2008)
Here is a company in the US with a similar goal.
http://www.zoltek.com/aboutus/
Also, DuPont, Bayer and others are in this fight it is not just Honda and Nissan.
Cars are not the only use for Carbon Fibers so many industries are in the research game.
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s13hybrid 3:48PM (7/24/2008)
I would assume they would impregnate the carbon fiber with something to make it shatter like that glass that shatters into small peices instead of shards (the name slips my mind now). Or soften the resin somehow (I am not an expert, so I assume there is resin involved), so it is flexible.
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Nick 3:48PM (7/24/2008)
CF degrades with the sun's UV rays, that's why the corvette zr1
s carbon fiber panels are coated with a high-tech UV inhibitor that costs around $50'000 a gallon.
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Shipey 5:01PM (7/24/2008)
The problem is that without the coating, the exposed CF frosts over like 1980s Ford headlights and looks terrible. So unless the manufacturers are going for the black weave look, it will be painted and frosting will be a non-issue.
_Jon 3:51PM (7/24/2008)
Oh, one more thing about Carbon Fiber (as it is used today on the US Military Airplanes) - when exposed to destructive blasts, it becomes worse than asbestos.
The tiny fibers embed in your lungs and cause irritation.
So First Responders (to a car crash or fire) would have to wear full respirators and passengers will be at risk.
Heck, they probably already are at risk, but there isn't enough experiential data to form lawsuits yet....
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BlackCanary 3:59PM (7/24/2008)
A number of studies have looked at the effect of carbon nanofibers on cultured cells, but the authors of the new paper took the studies into a more directly relevant model: the mouse. They injected carbon nanofibers, along with tangled carbon nanotubes and graphite powder, into the peritoneal cavity of mice; asbestos was also injected as a control. At two time intervals later, they washed the cavity out with saline and sampled the cells present in the wash. Two samples of untangled nanofibers produced an inflammatory response that was statistically indistinguishable from that triggered by asbestos.
When examined at the cellular level, tangled nanofibers were safely ingested and stored in macrophages. In contrast, the fibers caused what the authors termed "frustrated phagocytosis," where the macrophage appears as if it had been pierced by the fiber while trying to engulf it. Sections of the peritoneal cavity wall of these animals reveal the presence of large numbers of immune cells.
The authors caution that these results are not yet conclusive, as we lack two additional bits of data. This work hasn't demonstrated that the nanofibers actually reach the lung or cross into the body side of the organ when ingested via breathing. On the other end of the process, the researchers haven't demonstrated that this inflammation ultimately produces mesothelioma. It does, however, suggest that studies directed towards finding out should be pursued as soon as possible and that, in the meantime, a cautious approach to nanofiber exposure may be warranted.
BlackCanary 4:00PM (7/24/2008)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080521-carbon-nanofibers-may-mimic-asbestosand-not-in-a-good-way.html
Link to the above if anyone wants to see the whole article. Should have just posted the link. Sorry
Shipey 4:57PM (7/24/2008)
While the concept is great, I wonder if the weight savings will be allowed to make it to market.
You just know they'll use it up by adding 24 more airbags, techo-gizmos, etc.
We'll get cars that weigh the same, just filled to the brim with more useless junk.
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Michael 6:08PM (7/24/2008)
I haven't thought about that, and I know you're right, what ever happened to minimalistic cars?
Nick 5:45PM (7/24/2008)
"The problem is that without the coating, the exposed CF frosts over like 1980s Ford headlights and looks terrible. So unless the manufacturers are going for the black weave look, it will be painted and frosting will be a non-issue."
-> Visually, there won't be an issue, however, unless the paint is 100% UV permeable, it will degrade CF's strength over time. That means an older CF car will be less resistant to impact than a new one. With or without UVs, carbon fiber will degrade anyway...it basically never stops curing. Boats are white because it's the color that reflects the most UVs, but even then..
Also, composites tend to shrink a little over time (as a result of the continuous curing), so the paint on top better be flexible to make up for it.
My conclusion is, for us to see mass produced CF cars, there will have to be the following advancements:
-Reduction of CF price
-Reduction of labor in the fabrication process (automation)
-Affordable UV inhibitor (as on the ZR1)
-Slightly flexible paint
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Michael 6:06PM (7/24/2008)
This is the best news I've heard all year.
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Rick 6:45PM (7/24/2008)
There's nothing wrong with DARPA granting money to private companies to develop technology that can be used by the military.
Then why would it be wrong to grant money to private companies to develop other technologies that also add to the increased long term viability of this country. In this case, lowering consumption of a increasingly rare fuel source that powers the country forward.
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AMcA 7:54PM (7/24/2008)
I had the impression that carbn fiber wasn't going to get much cheaper. It has been in use for years in aerospace applications. The whole bleedin' 787 is made of it. There's been plenty of incentive to get its price down now for a long time.
So, much as I'd love to see carbon fiber get cheap, I'm not overly hopeful here.
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Jason 9:27PM (7/24/2008)
You people bitching about how carbon fiber would be worthless in a crash do know if properly designed, carbon fiber can most likely disperse kinetic energy better right?
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